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KAREN: We've selected some of the greatest minds at the Open University, don't laugh, people, and we have challenged them to a debate. And the topic for debate is about generalist or specialist degrees.
Now, in a recent article on the higher education blog WonkHE, Mike Grey, Head of the University Partnerships at GradConsult suggested, and I quote, "a huge strength, and a relatively unique feature of the UK graduate market, is that most graduate roles are open to those from any degree discipline."
And we all like a good quote, and a good question to start with a debate. So, what we've done is we've lined up two very friendly yet competitive teams from across the university to debate this issue, and to challenge myths, in parentheses, conceptions, around the value of generalist and specialist degrees to both students and employers.
This session will be of particular interest to those students who are on our Open Degree, but of course everybody is welcome, and I promise you it will be hugely entertaining.
I will attempt to keep the teams under control, and there will also be an opportunity for you to ask questions and to participate in the interactive widgets or voting tools that you will see on your screen. And you must make sure that your vote is counted, too. Now, these will change, most likely, during the session.
And the things that we would like you to tell us what you think are, employees prefer either a generalist degree or a specialist degree. So, you need to choose on which one of those you agree with at the time. Other important questions of the night are, who has the better hats. Now, this is a team-based effort here. So, we have Peter's team and Kristen's team. And which team has made the most convincing arguments. So, as you can see, we are ranking this on a variety of different measures.
Now, to introduce the teams, let me welcome Peter and Kristen, who are our captains for the evening.
And so Peter, could I ask you to introduce your teams.
PETER: Well, I'm Peter Taylor. I'm Professor of Organic Chemistry here at the OU. And on my right, I have ...
JOHN: Hello, everybody. My name's John Butcher. I'm Associate Director in Learning and Teaching Innovation, and I run our university's Access Programme.
PETER: And on my left ...
SALLY: And I'm Sally Crichton. I'm here because I represent Mathematics and Statistics on the Open Board Studies at the Open University. Go Team Open.
[LAUGHTER]
KAREN: Lovely. Kristen, would you like to introduce you and your team?
KRISTEN: Our lovely specialist team. I am captaining our team here. I am Kristen Reid. I'm the Teaching Director for the Undergraduate Business Programme. And to my left, I have ...
ANNE: My name's Anne Weissman. I am the Teaching Director and Law.
KRISTEN: And to my right ...
AROSHA: Hi, I'm Arosha Bandara. I'm a Professor of Software Engineering in the School of Computing and Communications. And I'm also head of that school.
KRISTEN: And we look forward to winning the debate.
[LAUGHTER]
KAREN: Right. And Helen is on our hot desk this evening, on our hot chair, so to speak. Helen from the Open Programme. Would you like to say hello to everybody? And how is everyone out there on this fine evening?
HELEN: Yeah. Hi everyone. For those of you that haven't seen me before, as Karen says, I'm the Open Programme manager. So, I work very closely with Peter, but I'm keeping a neutral view on the debate today. And ...
KRISTEN: That's why she's on this side of the ...
[LAUGHTER]
PETER: Well, I paid her.
HELEN: So, we've got people just kind of warming up, and a few comments on hats and things.
KAREN: Peter, Kristen's hat's getting a lot of love in the polls. Are you worried about that?
PETER: No no no no no. I'm sure that I can wear my hat as a jaunty angle.
[ROBUST LAUGHTER]
[INAUDIBLE]
KAREN: Olivia, is this better?
Well, thank you, Helen.
Now these are the rules. What we're going to do this evening is we're going to invite each team to make a point. So, we will be tossing a coin. We will be allowing five minutes per speaker. The first team will have a chance to have one, one, one, one, one. And then we will have a chance for rebuttals at the end.
The rules are there are no interruptions, speakers must wait their turn, and speakers should speak slowly and clearly. OK, so if our audience don't understand things, you let us know, and Helen will tell me all about it.
Right. So, let's toss our virtual actual coin and see if we have heads or tails. So, let's toss the coin and call. Right. Peter, would you like to make a call?
PETER: Heads.
KAREN: OK, and yes, it is heads. Right. So, Peter ...
PETER: We won the first thing. [LAUGHTER]
KAREN: Good start.
PETER: Downhill from here.
KAREN: It's a minor victory.
[LAUGHTER]
PETER: We know.
KAREN: Right. So, we're going to give you some time to make the first of three of your generalist arguments.
PETER: Thank you. I'm going to start with some quotes. Some, so here's one. "To meet current and future needs of employment and to give students some understanding of the society in which they will work, universities should consider making the first degree in science, engineering, and technology broad in character through multi-disciplinary approach to these subjects by introducing relevant studies in other fields, such as economics, sociology law, et cetera."
This is a quote from a 1968 report of the Working Group on Manpower for Scientific Growth that influenced the 1969 report of the planning committee of the Open University, which stated "the degree of the Open University should, we considered, be a general degree in the sense that it would embrace studies over a range of subjects rather than be confined to a single narrow specialty."
JOHN: Hurrah. Hurrah.
SALLY: Here, here.
PETER: "In our view, the Open University should not set out to compete with the established universities, rather should be complementary, providing part-time students with a broadly based higher education. And we were aware of the great need and demand in the country for general degrees." Thus started the Open University with one degree, the BA Open, a multi-disciplinary degree.
So, the OU has multi-disciplinarity, it's hard to say that word, multi-disciplinarity at its heart. Our founding fathers saw the benefits of multi-disciplinarity, both the student and to the country.
And now, a quote from our first vice-chancellor, Walter Perry. "The usual criticism is that a student who has a free choice of courses that they can take for credit is liable to end up with what's been called a miscellaneous ragbag of credit, a second-rate degree with no internal coherence. Such people argue strongly that teachers must determine the pattern of studies that are most suited to the individual student, and the direction of this kind is the essence of education."
"Opponents of this view, on the other hand, argue equally strongly that a student is the best judge of what they wish to learn, and that they should be given the maximum freedom of choice consistent with a coherent overall pattern. They hold that this is doubly true,"
JOHN: Doubly true.
PETER: "doubly true when one is dealing with adults, who, after years of experience of life, ought to be in a better position to judge what precise studies they wish to undertake"
JOHN: Here, here.
PETER: So, now fast forward 50 years. And in last week's Guardian, there was an article saying the university of the future will be interdisciplinary. "In a world where interdisciplinary research is of growing importance, dividing the universities by academic departments create barriers, not benefits. Designing courses that are cross-disciplinary, where one discipline learns from the perspectives of another, or interdisciplinary, where the disciplines are integrated, allows for more context-specific programmes that better suit industry and prepare students for jobs, opening doors rather than closing them."
So, why study a single subject, when you can study a whole wide range of subjects that meet your personal and industrial vocation objects. A common argument is around employability, a need to have a named degree in such-and-such to get a job in such-and-such.
But how many students actually end up, after three years, four years of study, in a job that's actually related to what they originally studied? They often end up in something completely different. So, there was a statistician who was looking at the wider graduate job market, and out of 144,000 roles, found that 71% were open to any discipline. So, multi-disciplinary students, there's a wide range of jobs available for you.
So, if you're not going to devote your life to chemistry, like I did, then you might as well enjoy your studies, and do the things you want to do.
[CHUCKLING]
[BELL DINGS]
JOHN: Hurrah.
PETER: Thank you.
JOHN: Hurrah.
KAREN: Bravo. I must say, Peter, I know that you prepared this. That was an incredible speech. I think we should all go home now.
[LAUGHTER]
Well, I do you have some news to report. Alice says that yes, Peter, there's a stirrer HJ, in the chat, and I'm glad to report that, since you turned your hat on a jaunty angle, which you ought to do again, you gained 17% of the share from the audience. So, we have now 17% versus 83% Kristen. So, some change there.
We also asked everyone how they were feeling right now. And our wordle showed some very interesting words. The one that I particularly liked was this word, persuadable.
Yes, so it's all up for grabs, despite that very impressive first opening, Peter.
So, I would now like to invite Kristen to present the first counterargument.
KRISTEN: Oh, thank you very much.
Well, thank you so much, Peter, for that history lesson.
[LAUGHTER]
KAREN: Ooh, I'm going to get my whistle out. Now, whilst I said they cannot be interrupted, there was nothing about sarcasm in there.
[LAUGHTER]
That's a bit of an oversight.
KRISTEN: We're actually very, very proud of the tradition of the Open Degree. And, you know, in fact, I think that's the tradition that's influenced how we design our specialist named degrees. Actually, I would think any one of us at this side of the room would understand that we have always seen interdisciplinarity as part of the way you contextualise your learning in a named degree. We understand the importance of a well-rounded approach to learning about a specialist area. And I think that's one of the strengths of the Open University is that our named degrees take that approach. It makes a subject come alive, I think.
I might also remind the generalist team that specialist qualifications have been around for quite a long time at the University, and even in the early 1970s, we had qualifications in Business and Enterprise. So, it's not that the founding fathers thought that a generalist degree was the only type of education, but that it was part of a suite of qualifications that could be offered to students.
I also wanted to make the point that I think there are several reasons why students value our name named degrees. You get to have that specialist knowledge that's been built through a qualification at each level, and to have, and to benefit from the expertise that you have within the faculties. I would ask our Access Colleague, Dr. Butcher, would he agree that the contextualisation of learning is key, and makes the subjects come alive, even in an Access Degree, and that the coverage of those specialist areas is how we help students to understand what higher education is all about.
JOHN: Possibly.
KRISTEN: Possibly.
And finally, I might say, if it was not for the specialist degrees that we have, would we not then have the marvellous range of topics available for students to study in the Open Degree?
So, that is our response. Thank you.
KAREN: Thank you very much. Very well weighed, and only two minutes thirty.
So, while we were talking, we've had some movement. At the moment, I'd like to report that the audience is saying that employees prefer generalist degrees is at 30% and specialist at 70%. That was before we started speaking. Perhaps some conceptions before the actual debate has gotten going. So, we don't know yet. But that the word, persuadable, should still stay front of mind.
The hat, I'm sorry Peter, well, actually you've gained 3%. So, you're on 20% now with the hat.
PETER: I'm on the way up.
KAREN: You are on the way up. It is shifting.
PETER: Couldn't go much lower.
KAREN: It is shifting.
KRISTEN: We do have some good hats over here.
AROSHA: Hats with kinetic features.
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
KAREN: Actually, your hat, Arosha, has had a lot of suitability for the subject.
AROSHA: Great. Thank you very much.
KAREN: Appropriate hatwear.
And, at last count, we had 80% of students at the moment saying that the generalist degrees were making the most convincing arguments. However, that was when Peter was speaking.
OK. Well, we can all do this.
AROSHA: Leaders and followers.
[LAUGHTER]
KAREN: I know, we need one of these things, don't we? Right.
Peter, who's next on your team to present the next case?
PETER: I think John comes next.
KAREN: Are you going to respond to Kristen's points?
JOHN: No.
KAREN: Is this your speaking hat, then?
JOHN: This is my speaking hat.
Peter clearly has presented an impeccable argument for what the majority of employers want from their graduate entrants. I'd just like to take some slightly different direction now and just personalise things a little more if I may.
I think higher education is not just about what employers want. I think we learn by being engaged and enthused, and we delight, as learners, in making connections.
I remember about 150 years ago when I was doing my undergraduate studies, I studied a joint degree in English and History. I did subsidiaries in Sociology and Psychology. And, in a sense, that was a really, really interesting way of approaching a range of degrees and wearing different spectacles to kind of understand how the world worked, really.
And, just to really counter the significance of the employability argument, I then went on and did a master's degree in Victorian Studies, which kind of made me unemployable, really. So, that consisted of Literature and Social History, Philosophy, and Art History, and the History of Science. And yet it kind of enthused me about understanding the way things worked, and I went on to tutor for the Open University in the Arts Faculty, all the time at Level 1 in cross-disciplinary subject areas, subjects taking big themes, subjects looking at things through different ways, different telescopes, different ways of looking.
And I think, thinking then, and I went on and did a doctorate in Education to immerse myself in, kind of, social science methods, really. So, I was occupying different spaces in a very, very interesting way. And I think that's important, because I think people need to understand one another a lot more. You need to understand where people are coming from. And you need to think about the kind of skills you might, as an individual, want to utilise, partly for employability purposes, but simply to have a rich and fulfilled life as an individual in the 21st century.
We don't know, there's plenty of research about this, we don't know what skills are going to be required later in the 21st century. We don't know what jobs we're going to be doing, and we don't know how are we going to be living our lives. So, the fluidity, the dynamism of studying in a generalist way seems to me a way forward.
I also think, if I may, just to think about, maybe, the type of learner we might be. So, I'm not such a great fan of learning styles and things like that. But I think there's maybe an argument that people learn in different ways, and some people will enjoy making those connections, and others will take a much more kind of perhaps, a straight down the line, disciplinary degrees our colleagues have talked about.
I think sometimes I talk to colleagues teaching Computer Science, and it seems to me that's very clear, there's a particular focus there. But also, they tell me that they really enjoy studying things like Philosophy to kind of balance some of that. So, I think it can be a cul-de-sac, perhaps, to study in a single discipline.
And my final point, Karen, if I may, we should reflect upon the fact that these kind of specialist disciplines that my colleagues over here are talking about are mere constructs invented by human beings, historically. They tend to lead to kind of self-perpetuating behaviour. That kind of thing, I don't know if you've ever heard of this, Peter, where someone in a particular discipline goes, kind of [DERISIVE GRUNT] my discipline's more important than your discipline. It's more important than your discipline. Or we're cleverer than your discipline. So, we don't want that. That has no place in the modern world.
I think there is a place for specialist degrees. We would not want to be operated on by a surgeon who had not studied brain surgery. I absolutely understand that. But also, we want empathy from that doctor. And if you go to a good medical school, you will have studied poetry and understood how people work. Pedagogy, not content.
[GASPS]
PETER: Brilliant. I'll remember that.
KAREN: 20 seconds to spare. And I didn't get to ring my buzzer again. Goodness me, you have prepared very well. I must say.
Now, we'd like you at home to keep voting. So, ...
JOHN: Vote now. Vote now.
[LAUGHTER]
KAREN: Yes, it's imperative that you vote. We will see what you have to say. So, let us know on all three aspects, which are all being moderated in equal proportion, whether or not you think that employers prefer a generalist or specialist degree, who has the better hat, and which team, so far, have made the most convincing argument.
So, what we do know is that Peter's hat is losing a little bit of ground. Some great hats are going on here, all up for grabs. Helen, what's happening there on the hot seat?
HELEN: So, as well as lots of comments about the hats, and somebody actually said, Peter, you look like a steam train driver, I think.
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
HELEN: Steam engine driver, so there you go. You've achieved your dream.
But yeah, lots of really interesting comments about people's experience of either studying a generalist or specialist degree.
And a couple of things to highlight. So, Devan has said, well, John, you had a point there about Computer Science, because he's enjoying the Ethics part of his MSE in Computer Science.
JOHN: How fascinating.
HELEN: Which was interesting. And Alice is saying the thing is it's each to their own. Some people would prefer to study one subject, whereas others don't find that fulfilling enough and would like to study different subjects. And different people's experiences, somebody is saying, so, Katrina was saying she likes the American stance. So, a generalist first, two years of a degree, and then they choose a major, which they can change.
And so, yeah. And just one last other interesting comment that I saw was around somebody who had done a specialist degree, but had supplemented that with lots of MOOC study, as well, so in different subjects. So, although they achieved their specialist degree, they were broadening their knowledge by studying some MOOCs as well.
So, yeah. Keep the comments coming. Really interesting.
KAREN: Well, excellent. Now, look, we have some feedback on our votes. The hats are doing well. This is all good effort. We're up to 33% now.
JOHN: Good work.
PETER: Would you look at this. By the end of the day, it will be 100%. I can plot the graph.
[LAUGHTER]
KAREN: But we all know, including Sally will point out, that that does mean that 67% is going to the other, 67% is going to the other team.
SALLY: Yes.
KAREN: So, not quite in the lead.
However, some interesting facts here about which team has made the most convincing argument. So, far, we have 78% of the audience agree that it is the generalists who are in the lead, and the specialists at 22%. So, it is all to play for.
But, when we asked them what employers prefer, the stats are a bit different. They said 46% prefer a generalist degree, and 54% a specialist. So, some aspect there about personal choice, and also, students, participants at home are really viewing these arguments that we're putting forward, which is a very, very interesting idea.
And again, you know, this question is about what employers are looking for as well. So, I would encourage the teams to focus on this aspect.
Who from your team is presenting your next case?
AROSHA: I think that's me.
KAREN: OK.
AROSHA: So, yes.
So, I'd like to start by kind of thanking John for the very eloquent argument he put. And then undermining it at the end by pointing out ...
JOHN: Typical of a specialist.
AROSHA: ... pointing out the importance of professional qualifications in specialist areas. And that's a very important point. So, just as you may not want a surgeon operating on you who doesn't have a degree in surgery and medicine, do you want a programmer building a driverless car who doesn't have a degree in Computer Science?
So, I think these are very important points, and disciplinary specialism has a role in ensuring that depth of technical knowledge and understanding in order to actually deliver things to build the future of, whether it's digital technologies, or new business models, or developing new legal frameworks. I think the specialist knowledge and skills that come from a named degree are critical in actually achieving that.
Now, the other point I would make is, of course, the other team have been very keen to point out the multi-disciplinarity of Open Degree programmes, and I don't dispute that. But I would take the point that there is nothing to say that specialist degrees don't embrace that multi-disciplinarity team as well.
So, in my own field of Computing, it's a very broad discipline that goes from understanding the people involved in building and using technologies, to the actual electronics and computer technology that underpins the technology, and then how to build software and evaluate its use in the world. So, this very broad field requires our students to understand many different perspectives, not just the purely technical one.
So, I think I would be remiss if I didn't mention that specialist degrees have all those features of the multi-disciplinarity of the Open Degree that has been highlighted, but at the same time giving students a deep knowledge and skill set in a particular area that allows them to engage in a professional sphere of work, and develop themselves along a particular career path.
So, I think the other point I would make is that, so I think one of our viewers has already made the point about how, pointing out one of our courses, MSE and Computing, and the introduction of Ethics and Law, and bringing those perspectives into student study. But also, the broader point that actually named degrees don't have to be in a single discipline area, that you can bring multiple disciplines together in Joint Honours Degrees that are named qualifications, and have the advantage of giving students that appreciation and deep subject knowledge and skill set in two related areas, so Computing and Psychology, or Computing and Business, getting that complementarity of knowledge and skills that students would be interested in learning.
So, I think, for all these reasons, the idea to think of specialist named degrees and that mode of study as somehow narrow, I think, is misrepresentative of the reality of these programmes, in that they focus on disciplines that are broad in their nature, and actually recognise the touch points to the other parts of the world that are relevant to them. And so, students get this opportunity to understand the relationship of a particular area of study, like Computing, or Business, or Law, but at the same time appreciate how it affects the world outside of that area, and work to it.
So, thank you. That's my point.
KRISTEN: Well done.
KAREN: Some very well-made points there.
Now, we'd like you at home to vote again. So, using the interactive widgets, we'd like to know whether employees prefer generalist degrees or specialist degrees, and which team has made the most convincing argument. We'll come back.
But first, the hat news. So, Peter, it is rising, 36%, which is good. John, hatless now. Kristen, you are on 64% in the hat department, with very few hat changes.
KRISTEN: No, I know.
[MOCK STAMMERING]
[LAUGHTER]
KAREN: And I understand why you're not keen to change. Because it is indeed fabulous.
ANNE: Never change a winner.
KRISTEN: Maybe I should put the goggles on. Will that help me?
KAREN: I think you're in the lead. Let's worry when it starts to go below 50, 50%.
Helen, how is everyone doing at home?
HELEN: Yeah, good. So, we've got a bit of a discussion going on about how, so Libby has said, I suspect an Open Degree might be more difficult, having to learn lots of different subjects, disciplines, rather than just the one in more detail. And I responded and said that Peter and I often refer to Open Degree students as brave learners, because they're willing to kind of take that risk and learn in different subject areas.
And also an argument from Alexandra saying that there are different subjects you can combine to give you the edge over other applicants when trying to find a job. So, you know, tailoring your degree to be able to apply for specific jobs as well.
PETER: Very good point.
KAREN: Yes. So, some excellent, yeah some excellent comments coming through. Yeah.
And I see, Peter, you've made a gratuitous hat change ...
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
... trying to get more votes.
PETER: Upped my game.
JOHN: We begged him to wear that from the start. He just wouldn't.
PETER: The rakish angle.
KAREN: Well let us see how everyone is doing ...
AROSHA: There's a mirroring of hat-wearing going on.
JOHN: We recognise the credibility.
[LAUGHTER]
KAREN: So, voting news. 69% generalist, 31% specialist after two rounds. So, that is for the most convincing argument, I believe. Excellent. And let's see what employers prefer, sorry. Actually, employees would be a very different one, as well. I think a lot of people are really behind generalist degrees here at home. So, if you haven't voted, do click on the button that you most agree with.
And currently, generalist degrees are on 43%, and specialists are on 57%. So, some slight movement there. Again, that persuadibility coming in. OK.
Stop everything. News, news, news. Right, let's see what, Peter has 53%.
SALLY: Oh!
KAREN: In the hat department.
JOHN: No.
[LAUGHTER]
KAREN: Now now now. But we've got to remember that the hats take second priority. Whilst I appreciate all three aspects are important, we have to remember that the employers prefer and the most convincing argument are 2/3 of the total vote.
So, but Peter, it does go to show that this hat is a lot more effective. So, that's good.
All right, so we have, now, the third case. And so Sally, I assume this is you, your turn. How are you going to ...
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
SALLY: OK. Well I didn't have anything prepared, Karen. So, I've been listening to what people have said. And I to want to say something about employers. The Open Programme, I think, illustrates the unique selling point we have in the Open University, with the multi-disciplinarity aspect of it. And over the years, as Peter said, employers have grown to value that Open Degree. And in my experience of working in the Open University in Scotland, I work very closely with employers, we have many, many students who are supported by employers in Scotland to study the Open Programme, because it's tried and trusted and valued. And that's what employers want.
Now, I wanted to pick up one of the points that John made earlier, my esteemed team colleague, here.
JOHN: Thank you so much.
SALLY: You are so welcome.
He said, how do you know, well, he said, you might be going into a bit of a cul-de-sac if you specialise too quickly. And my point is, at the very beginning of your studies, how you do you know? How do you know where you definitely want to go? For example, I love mathematics, but how would you know you definitely want to go on that path?
For example, for me, I started off wanting to be a physicist. And very quickly, I realised well, actually, that's not really what I want to do. And I changed, and I love, as you know, Karen, I love being a mathematician. But I wouldn't have known that at the beginning. At the very beginning of my studies, I would not have known to register there.
So, good point, teammate. Well-made.
And I also wanted to say that, if you're listening, and our arguments are turning your heads, it's not too late to change, that if you are on a specialist Programme, you can change to your Open Programme. Just a quick word to the SST that we were talking about this afternoon, your Student Support Team would be a good idea.
JOHN: It's the future.
SALLY: Yes.
And I think that's everything I wanted to say for now, Karen.
KAREN: And only two minutes, Sally. So, you can think of some other points.
Let me, people have been voting. I'm pleased to say that you are swinging the vote further your way to the generalist degree, which is now at 79%. But there is still more to play with, in terms of time. And we've got 21% on the specialist degree. Great.
And in hat news, Peter, you are now on 69% . But I haven't seen Kristen's new hat yet.
PETER: Now that's what worries me.
KAREN: Never show them, right. A hat you may remember from earlier. Kristen.
KRISTEN: Yes, hello.
KAREN: Hello. And what a fetching hat. And twinning well with your outfit.
KRISTEN: Oh, thank you.
KAREN: And glasses.
KRISTEN: Yes.
I think, actually, we should have friend Anne here provide a little bit more support for our specialist area.
ANNE: I'll do my best. Just as Sally, I have to start by saying, just as Sally, I haven't prepared anything. So, I've tried to pull some ideas together without preempting the rebuttals. I'll do my best.
What was raised a lot is the idea of multi-disciplinarity, and that the Open Degree, a generalist degree, is the only way that that can happen. Now, I'm sorry to disappoint, that's what we do in any specialist degree. We're very, very aware that's the multi-disciplinary approach is the way to go. You cannot shut the doors to the world these days. And the most successful degrees are the ones that are embracing the topic wholesome.
From a Law perspective, particularly, what lawyer would be of any use if he wouldn't know in what world law exists? So, we are very, very keen on training our Law students to understand the law in a wholesome approach, to know in what contexts it exists, to even know where laws come from. So, they study History, they study Politics. They even know some Philosophy, because they're taught the theory behind it.
So, in any specialist degree, there is a very fundamental level of interdisciplinarity or even multi-disciplinarity.
What we haven't really much talked about so far, although we mentioned it, is skills development. Now, whenever we approach a specific topic, we're pushed beyond what we envisaged ourself being able to achieve. So, it's, the specialist degree is the best way to train ourselves up, to prove to ourselves that we can go much further than they thought we would. We can develop skills by upskilling step by step. As we gain the knowledge, we learn to argue better. We learn to problem solve in a very different way. Whereas if I did tiptoe in and out of topic areas, I'm cutting myself short of that opportunity.
Now, also, whatever you study, they'll always be more questions. I think all on this side and on your side are passionate researchers, as well as teachers. So, whenever you start to explore a subject area, you want more. So, what's better than to do, to study a specialist degree, and get a chance to really get into the detail of the subject area you engage with, and be able to build on the basic knowledge, to explore the more specific areas, and prop up what you know from the basic level.
KRISTEN: Build your mastery in a subject.
ANNE: Build your mastery, build up your confidence, challenge yourself with others, and find the one area, the one subject, that you're really passionate about, and that you want to change the world in. And you cannot do that if you spread yourself too thin, if I may say that.
The cul-de-sac argument came up again, but that works on a very outdated assumption of specialist degrees. And I've already set that multi-disciplinary is essential in Law. Law students need to understand what context the law exists in. We cannot just teach them corner criminal law without teaching them about the society in which the criminal law exists, how these cases came about and what context they're developed in. So, ...
KRISTEN: Ethics and business.
ANNE: Yeah.
KRISTEN: I mean, it's right there.
AROSHA: Or the role of technology.
ANNE: Yeah.
AROSHA: So, I mean, yeah.
ANNE: Yeah. So, I guess what we're saying is, the specialist degree is the best way to go for you to really strive in a subject area, to excel, to become the expert, to find your niche that you're passionate about, underpinned by contextualising it in a multi-disciplinary way.
AROSHA: Yeah, well said.
KAREN: Excellent. Wonderful.
With some time to spare. And you have been swinging the vote, Anne. Unfortunately, it's still in the generalists favour, but it has been shifting, and is now 79% in the generalists' direction, and 21% in the specialists'. So, this is about the most convincing argument, but it's not about what you think at home, about employees prefer.
Now, what we're doing to do, oh, what's just changed? 71% now generalist, 29% specialist.
MAN: Well done.
KAREN: OK. So, it is shifting all the time. All right.
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
KAREN: We'll get some more hat news in a minute, but what we're going to do now is we're going to have a little break. And while you're collating your thoughts in terms of the final rebuttle, I want to try and summarise some of the key points, with Helen here, that we've heard this evening, and remind our audience at home about what the question is.
So, our teams may have a few quiet moments, murmurs, et cetera, as they collect their thoughts together.
Now, what I must remind people, as we often do, is that, interesting as arguments are, we must remember what the set question is. And here, we were talking very much about employment prospects. And, you know, it's about the graduate's degree making no difference, or some difference, to that aspect.
So, the subject discussion is generalist versus specialist degrees, which do employers prefer? Now, we've seen some very convincing arguments here that relate directly to employment. And I would encourage the team to, perhaps, you know, centre on some more tangible links to employability, because this argument has really been focusing on teaching from the bottom up.
And, having teaching directors here, you know, it is entirely understandable why there is that perspective. But it may explain why there is some discrepancy between what the audience think employees prefer, and who's made the most convincing argument.
So, let me try and sum up where we've been. But first some voting news. So, generalist degrees are at 67%. Specialist degrees are now up to 33%.
So, that was after your last argument, Anne.
So, Peter began our discussion with some of the history, and again, really focusing on what the Open University were trying to achieve. And he focused, again, on this idea of having an Open Degree as part of the university heritage. And he quoted founding fathers, et cetera, and made the point, at the end, about ending up in a job-related degree, said that a lot of students may not be doing that.
Kristen picked up on a lot of these points, as well, really highlighting that interdisciplinarity was at the heart of a lot of specialist degrees, and indeed that's what made it so rich, and that, when we were scaffolding and structuring modules, this was something that was incorporated. And so, whilst degrees were specialist, there was this aspect of multi-disciplinarity included in there.
We then heard from John, who was really focusing on what employers want. And he really convincingly argued that, actually, studying and higher education was not necessarily all about getting a career or a qualification. So, what employers want was part of the motivation for some things that were important for students.
Arosha made the point, again, drawing on some things like Computing and Medicines, and saying that specialist degrees were needed for certain things, and were very essential. Again, you know, that has clear links to employment. And he says that, you know, named degrees don't have to be in a single degree area. So, again, highlighting that specialist degrees could have this multi-disciplinarity even though they were contained.
Sally, then, talked about how she didn't know that she wanted to study Maths, initially, and was off on a dire Physics path until she realised the error of her ways.
[LAUGHTER]
But making the point that, very early on, you don't always know what you want to do. And it's not just a subject area, but sometimes it's about the things that you're doing within that degree that can have more meaning, perhaps, than the content.
Anne, then, talked to us about developing skills step by step, again, really focusing on teaching, and talking about this outdated assumption of specialist degrees, and really saying that this cul-de-sac argument was a bit last-century. Talking, again, about mastery in a subject, and about how those things could be scaffolded, and how they needed to be structured within a specific discipline.
Helen, how have I done at summing up some of the key points that our teams have very eloquently made?
HELEN: Yeah, excellent. So, I think, as you say, the teams have made some really good arguments. And I'm not sure how I would vote at the moment. And that's saying something.
[LAUGHTER]
I am trying to remain impartial. Obviously, my heart lies with the Open Programme, but, some really interesting comments coming in. So, actually, we've got Simon saying, based on the arguments, I'm reconsidering adding a second subject my degree ...
[CHEERS]
... which I originally was thinking could enhance my studies in Computing by adding Psychology. But would this then go towards a new specialised area.
So, actually getting people, you know, people are starting to think about whether specialist or generalist is right for them. So, always worth having a conversation with your Student Support Team before you make any decisions.
And Alexandra is saying, you know, the job market constantly changes regarding supply and demand of workforce. So, if you specialise in just one discipline, you might leave yourself on the back foot if there are more job seekers than open positions in that area, without you having a backup.
So, really interesting conversations going on.
A point that I picked up earlier, as well, somebody, I forget who made the point, apologies, but somebody made the point about needing to educate employers about the different types of degrees. So, you know, here we are talking to students about the different options, but actually what could we do more to educate employers to understand why students are studying a certain way, or why they've chosen a certain degree.
And then, in hat news, what you didn't pick up on, Karen, was that somebody referred to Peter's hat changes as looking like Mr. Ben. So, for those of you that remember Mr. Ben from TV Gold. With all of your changes.
And Kristen's hat change went down very well, very popular. And people liking your combination of headwear, too, Anne.
[LAUGHTER]
Yeah. All good. So, yeah.
KAREN: And the vote has been swinging as well. So, we're now on 60% for generalist degree ...
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
KAREN: ... and 40% for a specialist. So, the gap is closing. The gap really is closing. And I'm now going to invite our teams to sum up some of their thoughts, and really encourage them to focus on this key aspect of employment.
So, Peter, would you like to collate your group's ...
PETER: Well, I think we're going to spread it out a bit in a moment. But I think one of the things to realise, I do a lot of work with small to medium enterprises, where there needs to be a range of skill set and knowledge within those companies. And by having multi-disciplinary or more broader people, working within those SMEs, it provides that kind of range of skills.
And one of the examples we often use is things like a sound engineer, doing a range of different topics, things like technology, business, music, a range of things. And some of the, kind of, specialist degrees, I agree, they do have a certain amount of multi-disciplinary around it, which is a good thing.
JOHN: Stolen our clothes, really.
PETER: And I note that that's a good thing, and we kind of like that. But often, then, they're not always in the right areas. They're kind of in, kind of, common areas. But by choosing your own particular group of subjects to study, you become unique. You become something that actually is of great value. Because there's lots of other people doing those, kind of, specialist things.
So, specialist degrees don't always have that, kind of, right pathway for you.
One thing I wanted to say is, I think, within the UK, we specialise too early. I think that other countries have, specialise a lot later, and you have a much greater-informed society with that kind of multi-disciplinary, I agree that there needs to be specialists in some areas, as you said. The need for people to design the driverless car. But there also need to be multi-disciplinary experts to help those specialists communicate, and to be part of that multi-disciplinary team.
And the last thing I wanted to say was that exciting things happen at the edges where subjects come together.
JOHN: Don't they just.
PETER: That's the kind of things I love, in terms of my research. The stuff I do in Chemistry is nothing compared to those edges of Chemistry, Biology etc. where some really interesting things come.
That's my bit. Do you want us to kind of just finish up our bits?
KAREN: You can have a few, yes, we can have a few minutes to sum up, yes.
SALLY: Very, very quickly. Just to say that there is still specialist knowledge within Open Programmes. So, you still start at Level 3. There's still specialist knowledge, but in more areas. So, therefore, you build confidence, and in a delicious symbiosis in different subject areas. And employers benefit from these skills.
And just to reassure students listening, that the Open University works very closely with employers everywhere. There's an entire section in Open University called the Business Development Unit. We work very closely, and I work very closely with them in Scotland, as I've already said.
And I'll put my hat at a jauntier angle if it will affect the hat vote.
JOHN: We might need it, Sally.
SALLY: On to you, John.
JOHN: I've got two points, if I may, Chair. And the first one is an example, really, because I've worked in other universities than the Open University. And all of those have offered a kind of generalist degree. Sometimes they call it Combined Studies or something like that.
My particularly favourite example was a new Vice-Chancellor came in and was querying the value of a generalist degree. And he picked upon one particular example of a student who was studying for a degree in German and Equestrian Studies. And he thought this was madness. What, possibly, could be the connection between these two very diverse subject areas. Until it was pointed out to him that the main blood stock market exists in Germany. And therefore, the ability to go into Equestrian Studies with the excellent German was going to make this person very employable. So, that seems to me an important point.
And then, just in case we need, we just need a little push up, a little rising, I'm just going to toss in a small, perhaps controversial, hand grenade, if I may. And this is really for us all to reflect upon a decade of austerity, a decade of economic misery, which many esteemed academics feel has been caused because people who were working in senior positions in financial companies and financial services had a particular take on the study of Economics, which led them to groupthink, or had particular MBAs after their name, which led them to groupthink.
Nobody challenged the appalling neoliberal globalisation that we've suffered from the last 10 years. Therefore, specialisation can be very, very dangerous.
SALLY: Here, here.
PETER: I take my hat off ...
[LAUGHTER]
KAREN: Bravo. Some excellent points. And the vote has been swinging. It has. If you haven't voted yet, do.
JOHN: Oh, please.
KAREN: I want to hear the two votes. I want to hear what employees prefer. So, what do you think the answer is? But I also want to know which team has made the most convincing argument, an area that, in addition to the hats, we've been predominantly focusing on.
The scores right now are 71% in favour of generalist degrees. So, some points from John.
We're going to need some very convincing arguments here. And I'm going to now invite you to have a total of five minutes, you can choose to spread that out as you wish, to make up your final points. You were at 40%, now at 29%. So, there is some ground to make up. The audience have said they were persuadable. So, I'd like you to put your best arguments forward, please, for the specialist degrees.
HELEN: No pressure.
KRISTEN: Well, I'm not entirely certain that I would put all of the blame of austerity on a series of experts and specialists.
PETER: Well, they would say that, wouldn't they?
[LAUGHTER]
No, and in fact, I might encourage us to think about how the innovation that we get, and the passion that we get, from specialists are really ways that we're able to counter some of the problems that we've had in austerity. And, in fact, if it wasn't for those specialist areas of knowledge, we might not be in a period of possible growth now, that we might be still suffering quite a bit.
So, I think innovation is key. And how do you do that? You build that through mastery. You know that from a real depth of knowledge. Yes, you can specialise, or touch, as Anne mentioned, you know, dip your toe in different specialist areas in the Open Degree. And again, we have benefited quite a bit in the Open University from understanding that interdisciplinarity.
But at the same time, a specialist degree gives you a lot more depth to your knowledge, and really be able to take your knowledge farther.
One of the students that we were talking to in our student consultation in Business said, you know, I've really worked so hard to learn about accounting. I've struggled. And she said, I really want my degree to reflect that learning, and that effort that I've put in, that commitment that I've put in. And, you know, I think that that's something that gets missed in an Open Degree. It's a badge of honour, I think, to be able to have a specialist degree.
I don't know if, Arosha, you wanted to add to that.
AROSHA: I mean, kind of building on that, and the importance of reflecting the depth of knowledge that a student has gained in a particular area through naming the degree in relation to that area.
I would also make the point around the importance of, then, the professional recognition that can flow from that, right. So, in certain areas, certainly, professional recognition by a community of peers in that professional area is very important. And the only way the profession can really assess the knowledge that you have gained through a degree Programme is by being confident that you have covered the requisite knowledge, and gained the requisite skills that are relevant to that profession.
So, accreditation by that professional body, whether it's Computing, or Accounting, or Law ...
KRISTEN: Or law, yeah.
AROSHA: ... would require that, the fact that there's a named degree that the professional community can associate themselves with is actually quite important.
So, speaking to the point about employability and professionalism and mastery in an area, the fact that there is this pathway that is named is very important. But not to lose sight of the fact that the pathway is not a narrow, fixed pathway. There are opportunities to branch and experience other areas as you go through that at each stage.
So, you know, I think with the named degree, you actually can end up with the best of both worlds, as it were. So, you get that multidisciplinary by experiencing the related areas of the specialism, but also that deep subject knowledge and opportunity to master an area, and join a professional community relating to that area.
KRISTEN: Mm-hmm.
KAREN: You have one more minute if you'd like to raise any additional points.
ANNE: Let me end, then, by asking, where do you think innovation happens? Innovation doesn't happen when we sit at the knots between detailed areas. Innovation happens at the centre.
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
ANNE: Cancer research happens when you sit down in labs for years and years and years, and you stare through your microscope, and you do your research, and you do your reading, and you go to conference talking to other specialists. That's where innovation happens. That's where expertise happens.
KAREN: An interruptions, and I'll award extra time.
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
ANNE: That is where we bring society forward, where we bring medicine forward, where we bring computing forward. We still wouldn't have computers if those guys developing them would have stopped and went off and rather watched a soap opera or studied, I don't know, all of sudden we're interested into politics. We got these amazing things around us because they sat there and focused on this one thing for years, and developed a specialist knowledge that we can now enjoy the fruits of.
[BELL DINGS]
KAREN: Oh, excellent. Well said, Anne. Excellent. Well, I mean, the vote has been swinging. So, let's see what, you haven't voted lately. Let's see what the votes were at.
Last count, but do vote now. We'd like to know on employees prefer, who has the best hat, and which team has the most convincing argument. At last count, we had 63% on the generalist degree, so losing some ground, 37% on the specialists. That was before they heard you speak, Anne.
I wonder what the vote's going to be. Incidentally, on the general question about whether employers prefer generalist degrees or specialist degrees, the vote has been staying relatively static, on 47% 53% throughout this whole discussion.
Hat news, Peter was on the 47%. So, the had have generated some interest. But wait, I don't know whether they've seen your new hat.
PETER: They haven't seen my new hat.
KAREN: So, keep voting. And we will feed and do that. Helen, I hear that we've had news about people thinking about adding languages to qualifications. And Alexandra says that Peter has won here over. What else have people been talking about?
HELEN: Quite a few comments about, particularly about adding a language to a qualification.
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
So, actually, somebody saying all degrees should have a bit of language on the side. Somebody actually said, this is one for Anne, somebody saying that it would be great to do a qualifying Law degree with a language. So, maybe something to consider there.
ANNE: I'm all for it.
HELEN: And, yeah, somebody here saying that they did a beginner course in Chinese, but that's very difficult. And, you know, so really sort of seeing the value of being able to add a language into their degree as well.
I think that's been most of the comments most recently. There hasn't really been much hat talk, although Davin has just said, referred to you as DJ Pete. So, you've gone from a steam engine driver to Mr. Ben to a DJ. So, I think your children would be very proud.
[LAUGHTER]
KAREN: Yeah, I think you're losing ground on the hat vote, Peter.
HELEN: But winning votes over, in terms of people thinking, now, about adding different subjects into their degree. So, yeah, good, convincing arguments.
KAREN: So, Peter, you are now down to 39% of the vote for the hats, I'm afraid. And Kristen went 61% on the hat front.
OK, so I think, now it's time to, the vote has been swinging around. At last count, it was 60%, on who has made the most convincing argument, to generalist degrees, and 40% to specialist degrees. However, most people are saying, again, that generalist degrees were less favourable than specialist degrees, in terms of what employers prefer. So, it is a very mixed opinion.
I have, yeah, please vote now. This is your last chance. I have thoroughly enjoyed this debate, I must say, not only because you have raised some excellent points, but because I don't know any university what you would invite a live debate with silly hats on TV. And I think that demonstrates how fabulous the Open University is, and how, despite the fact that each of you have subject-specific areas, you've been able to represent an argument.
And it's this thing we were talking about before, about trying a different alternative, to sound an argument out. And articulating things are so important when you're a student. And I think you've done a phenomenal job demonstrating the value of trying to choose a position, and argue it through. So, from an academic perspective, I say, bravo, everybody. You've done the university proud.
However, Davin did suggest a new religion last night, which was called Sitting on the Fence. Because we invited some colleagues from Religious Study. So, unfortunately, I'm going to be doing that, and following his new religion.
But very interesting to see what the votes are at last count. Before we take the final vote, Helen, I would just like some thoughts from you, please.
HELEN: Yeah, so similarly, obviously, my heart lies with the Open Programme. But I've been very impressed by all of the arguments made, and really just being able to demonstrate, as you say, Karen, what other university would you be able to, kind of, have panels such as this to be able to debate the qualifications that we offer.
And, you know, one type of qualification is not for everybody. The fact that we offer a range across the university is a real benefit for our students, as well as it making very interesting for our staff as well.
PETER: Whilst wearing ...
HELEN: Whilst wearing a range of different hats.
[INTERPOSING VOICES]
It all comes down to that the multi-disciplinary nature of hat wearing, I think.
JOHN: And, Karen, do I get an extra point if I can bring together specialism and hats?
KAREN: If you can do it in, no, I'm afraid, well, if you can do it in 30 seconds ...
JOHN: The most interesting specialist course I know was when Philip Treacy, the milliner, approach the Royal College of Art, and they put on a master's degree in millinery just for him. I rest my case. Or their case.
KAREN: Well, I'm afraid we're going to take the vote at the previous count, John. I'm not sure that would have swung things, if I'm completely honest, but it has been swinging a lot.
We finally settled on the end score of generalist degrees with 55%, specialist with 45%. However, you have won the hat vote, so every cloud has a silver lining.
Thank you, everybody, for being involved in this debate. It really has been fantastic fun. I hope you enjoyed it at home as well. And I hope that it's given you something to think about.
Do speak to your Student Support Team if you're interested in exploring different options. They'll give you some information, advice, and guidance about certain subjects and certain pathways. So, those are all very important to explore before you make a decision. But I think we've looked at the implications in a lot of really relevant detail.
Well, I'm going from Earth to space in a minute, where we're going to talk about some moons and some planets with the Department of Science, with some planetary geologists. But first, we have some videos. We're going to look at some of the 60-second Adventures. And we're going to look at Mercury, black holes, and dark energy before I Dave Rothery and his PhD students talking about their favourite planet.
Right. That's all from us. We'll see you in a few minutes downstairs.
JOHN: Hurrah.
[INDIE ROCK MUSIC PLAYING]